Germany has been analysing its Nazi and Holocaust history for decades. But in recent years, far-right extremism and violent plots have increased, particularly against Jews, Muslims and immigrants. At the same time, the AfD (Alternative for Germany) party is gaining political ground and is accused of provoking violence, which he denies. In the new documentary FRONTLINE Germany’s Enemy Within, filmmaker Evan Williams investigates the rise of the AfD and far-right extremism, talking to intelligence officials, politicians, and victims of far-right violence.
Williams explained to FRONTLINE how the rise of the AfD has had a broader effect on German politics and why it was important to ask Björn Höcke, one of the AfD’s most influential politicians, about his anti-immigration rhetoric. Williams also spoke about the developing divisions within German society and how the country’s minorities are affected by far-right political rhetoric and violence.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
What encouraged you to return to Germany and make a sequel to your 2021 film The German Neo-Nazis and the Far-Right?How has the far-right movement evolved since then and its role within German society?
In 2021, we focused a lot on far-right political violence against politicians, Muslims and Jews, as well as the teams that organized violent plots. In recent years, we have detected this with the expansion of Alternative für Deutschland, AfD, What now worries other people is that far-right parties like the AfD are gaining more political strength. Especially in East Germany, where they are very popular in the polls (more than 30%), which means that they could gain strength in those states. , which would be the first time a far-right party has taken control of a German state since the Nazis ruled Germany. The AfD maintains a popularity of around 20% throughout the country. Thus, approximately one in five Germans supports a party that is closely related to anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim and anti-LGBTQ rhetoric; And it’s a very authoritarian and ethno-nationalist white German culture.
And two other major incidents caught our attention. One of these was the Reichsbürger plot, which consisted of an alleged assault on the Federal Parliament through an organization of other people from the so-called Reichsbürger movement, involving a key AfD politician. Then there was the report of the newspaper Correctiv on this assembly attended by 4 leaders of the AfD party, where the following idea was discussed: immigrants should be forcibly remigrated or expelled from the country, not only if they are illegal immigrants. Drag them along too if they have not assimilated enough into German society. This specific assembly sparked large protests throughout Germany.
Is it fair to say that the growing popularity of the AfD political party has shifted far-right ideology from the margins of society to the mainstream?Has the AfD’s growing popularity had an effect on Germany’s main political parties?
The AfD started as a necessarily anti-EU (anti-European Union) party in 2013, and complained about the European bailouts Germany was investing at the time.
Then that changed, because in 2015, German Chancellor Angela Merkel let more than a million people, mostly Syrians and Afghans, into the refugee crisis. This triggered a very serious anti-immigrant and anti-refugee backlash in Germany. of this. He began to use anti-immigration rhetoric and his popularity increased significantly. And since then, he has brought the centre of German society closer to his position, specifically on immigration. Increasingly, central politicians are beginning to use AfD-style rhetoric against immigrants.
He spoke with Björn Höcke, head of the AfD in the German state of Thuringia. Who is he in the German political context?
Björn Höcke is a former history professor, described through a key political scientist we interview in the film, Kai Arzheimer, as one of the most influential figures, albeit one of the most powerful, in the AfD. He is very anti-immigration, anti-Muslim and anti-multiculturalism. He also attempts, as Arzheimer tells us, to rewrite German history. Several public comments he has made are highly controversial, in which he calls the Berlin Holocaust Memorial a monument to shame. AfD, following his 2017 comments about the monument, said he had made a “mistake” and had learned “many lessons”. ]
He also said that the cultural understanding of the desire not to forget the Holocaust and to teach young people about what happened in the Holocaust, which is very central to German society, education and politics, said that we deserve to make a 180 degree turn. . this, which necessarily means changing course. Schooling about the Holocaust. He is a blatantly anti-Muslim immigrant politician and very influential within the AfD.
Höcke rarely speaks to foreign media. How was the interview?What did you expect to perceive when talking to him? Did something specific catch your attention during the interview?
We worked with suitable colleagues, German manufacturers and other people we work with, who granted us this interview through their contacts with the AfD. And I think they were probably very interested in speaking on American television. They’re seeing what’s going on with [former President Donald] Trump. They are aware of what is happening here on the far right. Höcke even quoted Trump in the interview, because of one of the comments I talked to him about him having been convicted, namely the word “All for Germany,” which is a Nazi saying.
The most important thing, from a journalistic point of view, was to be able to personally present to Höcke some of the accusations against him, such as Nazi sayings, so that he could better understand what he is really saying. Can Muslims not integrate well into German society?Why is it so anti-immigration?
He didn’t shy away from any of the more debatable comments he’s ever made. I think he sincerely believes in many of the things he says. He is also a very intelligent politician. He is very careful with his language. He will say things that he knows will appeal to a sure component of German society, a more far-right group; However, he will try his best to stay within the law, although he tries it all the time.
Höcke uses rhetoric in his speeches that reflects anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim sentiments, and we have just mentioned that he employs a forbidden Nazi slogan. Through your reporting, have you noticed the effect that this rhetoric has on the target groups of Höcke’s speech?
All minorities feel vulnerable because they feel like they are the “other” in society. They are attacked because they are not German. And that makes other people very volatile and very dangerous.
Armin Kurtović believes that the man who killed his son, the far-right shooter, was watching those far-right videos in which Björn Höcke appeared. And the police concluded that the shooter was in some way influenced or encouraged to commit this act because of the rhetoric carried out through the AfD, through the far right in Gerguyy. [Editor’s note: AfD officially condemned the attack that killed Kurtović’s son and denied that the killer motivated his rhetoric. ]
Thuringia’s head of domestic intelligence says that if the AfD gets enough votes to be in power, it will leave Germany. That was a surprising comment to me. It is the head of the internal intelligence of this state who is Jewish and who says that he will not take any risks. The explanation is that he has been saying for years that we want to pay more attention to the developing political influence of the far right, and he has been told: “Don’t worry about that. We’ll take care of it. And he said, “I’ve been told that for years, and now look where we are. “And I said to him: why not move to another part of Germany?And he said that if they win in one state, that will take them to other states; Winning will lead to even more victories.
The feeling I had this time in East Germany is that considerations about the extreme right are much more developed. People are concerned about the effect this may have on social and political life, both for immigrants and critics of the informal press, the media and the police.
Germany’s domestic intelligence services said the AfD in Thuringia and two other states posed an extremist risk to democracy and had placed it under observation. The national party has been declared an alleged risk to democracy. Höcke was found guilty of a banned Nazi slogan. AfD and Höcke can participate in democratic elections. How do German democratic institutions manage to strike a balance between preserving political freedoms and countering risks to democracy?
This is the big central question. National intelligence was created after World War II to prevent the return of extremism, that is, in politics, to prevent the return of the Nazis. At the same time, Germany is well aware of protections for loose speech and political activity, because of the way the Nazis acted against all opposition, including the loose press, long before the Jewish pogroms and everything else.
So Germany has this very complicated balance because of its history. After the Correctiv revelations, there is a lot of tension to say: “Let’s ban the AfD. They are obviously extremists. But a lot of other people say: “Wait a second. You have to be very careful, because banning political parties is what happened in the 1930s. Furthermore, if almost 20% of the population supports the AfD nationally, then this organization is being deprived of its rights from other people. who will then distance themselves even further from democracy. process, because they will feel that their voice is being silenced.
They seek to maintain freedom of political activity and expression, but they made the decision that there were limits to what can be said. Particularly when it comes to the Holocaust, some things are simply illegal.
We see that the popularity of the AfD has increased in Germany over the last decade; However, anti-AfD protests have also attracted massive crowds of supporters. Are these divisions felt more deeply throughout Germany today than when reporting on this issue began?
There were revelations in Correctiv, in which the AfD participated in this secret meeting and discussed how not only immigrants, refugees or illegal immigrants, but also other people who, according to them, are not sufficiently assimilated, can be deported. Suddenly, it wasn’t just about immigrants anymore. These were potentially other people who are your neighbors, your friends, your own family. I mean, how far back do they go? Who makes the decisions and how do we make a decision if we are not German enough? Many Germans said: “This is not something we accept, that can be discussed. In my interview with Björn Höcke, he said that it deserves to be imaginable to inspire those who are not assimilated or who are burdened with social assistance to leave Germany.
I think the divisions are there. I think the divisions are deepening. The other thing I discovered in the East this time was the appeal of the AfD’s message to other people who don’t consider themselves neo-Nazis or far-right at all (normal, sometimes fine). other educated, wealthy, middle-class, older people, who were attracted to what the AfD did next, that is, to wage war against Ukraine. Because “we don’t have to worry about a land war in Europe. Russia is our “We’ve been friends with them,” especially since they’re from Eastern Germany.
The AfD has recently managed to attract other people who felt they were not being paid attention. These other people are convinced that the mainstream media is against them. They no longer pay attention to the media. They pay attention to their own means. Therefore, it becomes an echo chamber for a more extreme and far-right ideology than they realize. And then separate themselves from the rest of society in what they pay attention to, what they believe. So I think those divisions are deepening.
Much of the documentary focuses on Thuringia, the eastern state of Germany where Höcke leads the AfD. What led Thuringia to become a stronghold of the AfD?
There are some complex reasons. One of the vital reasons is that East Germany still feels a bit in terms of integration with West Germany. When the Berlin Wall fell in 1989, promises were made of investment and economic expansion in the East. To some extent, this has happened, however, to some extent it is not. Therefore, they feel at least harmed in the project of total integration.
In the June 2024 European elections, far-right parties, including the AfD, made significant gains in the European Parliament. How is the resurgence of the far right in Germany compatible (or differs) with the context of the far right in Europe?As a whole?
I believe that the AfD is an integral part of this European movement. But what is happening is that the AfD is going much further than other far-right groups in Europe. Thus, in Italy or France, if they get a position of power, they tend to moderate their message in some way. The AfD is continually going in the opposite direction and becoming more extreme. So much so that the French far-right component, the National Rally, refused to sit next to them or to join a European far-right group. The AfD is therefore still too right-wing for the European far right.